Episode 29: How to Choose the Perfect Pillow For You

Show notes

When is it time to replace your pillow? What should you look for when you do? And for those of us with neck or back pain, is there a right way and a wrong way to sleep on your pillow? To dive into this topic, we’ve invited Marten Carlson, Lead Reviewer for Pillar4 Media, with six years experience testing pillows, mattresses, and all things sleep.

Episode-related links

Best Pillows – Our Favorite Picks
Latex vs Memory Foam Pillow: Differences and Benefits
What’s The Right Pillow For You? Here’s How To Choose

Transcript

DR. SHELBY: How are you sleeping? Are you sleeping? I’m Dr. Shelby Harris, Director of Sleep Health at Sleepopolis. And this is Sleep Talking with Dr. Shelby. The show that dives deep into all things sleep, so you can get the rest you deserve.

Today, we’re learning how to pick the perfect pillow with Marten Carlson, but first, do you need a good scream?

If so, you might like the Shoutlet, a pillow specifically made to be screamed into quote anytime, anywhere without the stare. The general idea is that if you’re feeling angry or stressed, you can vent some of those emotions with a loud, prolonged scream. As opposed to standard pillows, which don’t muffle the sound that much, the Shoutlet is made of noise blocking materials with a dense foam core, allowing it to silence the loudest of shouts.

But is screaming an effective way to relieve stress? According to anecdotal evidence, yes, some people say it helps release their frustration. However, there is little scientific evidence to confirm that screaming can improve sleep, increase energy, or even boost immunity, as the Shoutlet suggests.

But if it makes you feel comfortable and calmer to scream into a pillow, and if your doctor agrees it’s not damaging your vocal cords, the Shoutlet starts shipping this month.

What’s your take on the Shoutlet, Martin? Would you get one?

MARTEN CARLSON: I would. I’m a pretty chill person overall, but I think there’s been times in my life like, my first job I worked at a grocery store and I had a boss who drove me absolutely crazy, and I would, I would scream my car on the way home.

So I think, I think the shoutlet probably would have helped in that situation.

DS: If you like Sleep Talking with Dr. Shelby, take a second to follow or subscribe on YouTube, spotify or Apple podcasts. It seems simple, but it helps us reach a lot more people to get them the rest they deserve.

Last year, Martin helped us understand how he reviews mattresses in our episode, what it’s really like to test mattresses for a living. And if you haven’t checked out that episode yet, go ahead because it is one of my favorites. Martin, thanks so much for being here and welcome to Sleep Talking with Dr. Shelby.

MC: Dr. Shelby, it’s great to be back with you.

DS: So let’s start off with just a general idea of pillows. So we know that choosing the right pillow is really essential for proper support and a good night’s sleep. But what are some signs, Martin, that it’s really time to replace your current pillow?

MC: Pain issues can be a big sign that you are not getting the proper amount of support. You’re getting out of alignment as I think we talked about last year with mattresses, like spinal alignment. And as you know this as well is so important, with sleeping and a pillow can play a huge part in that. So neck pain can be a sign. Also, maybe even shoulder pain. If you’re a side sleeper, you’re not getting the proper, you know, support.

And in addition, like the kind of gross stuff is the yellowing, the smell. So when I first started reviewing products, we were doing a video on how to clean a dirty pillow. My coworker at the time said, Oh, does anyone have like a dirty pillow at their house? And I said, Oh no, I think I got, I think I got one.

So I brought it in. This thing was disgusting and I didn’t know how bad and I was shamed by everyone in the room and it was kind of like that 20 year old dude sleeping on the floor, dorm pillow kind of thing that I still was holding on to in my thirties. And I, I, I’ve since moved on from that, but that is a clear sign that it is time to get a new pillow.

Also just like lumps are a pretty big sign as well of just unevenness. If you’re dealing with something which we’ll get into, I’m sure in a bit, is memory foam.

DS: Yeah.

MC: Huge, huge divots in there and just like unnatural kind of sagging.

DS: What about like timeline? Like, is it every few years? I mean, some people I talk with have their pillows for 20, 30 years because they’re just used to it.

MC: Yeah. Everything that, I’ve in my research and just in our product team and review teams here, usually say one to two years is honestly kind of what you want to do.

DS: Really?

MC: It does depend on the type of pillow. Like, I mean, a latex pillow is more durable. It’s going to be a hypoallergenic usually it’s going to not sag as quickly as other types of pillows but like a polyester pillow which is kind of like the bottom of the barrel- no they’re not bad, but for like a guest room they’re okay ,you’re gonna probably replace in a year.

DS: Okay.

MC: Up to like a nicer Tempur-pedic memory foam I think you get that a little bit longer if you take good care of it, but like definitely you’re saying like 20 something years, it’s kind of like mattresses. People say I’ve had this bed, I’ve had it since i was a teenager I’m like it is time to let go you and to move on .

DS: Yeah, I had to have a talk with my husband when we first got married about letting go of his college and like growing up pillows like this is not, not happening anymore.

So what about sleep position? Right? So that’s a big thing. A lot of people might sleep on their stomach versus their side versus their back, or they sleep in various positions. So like, what should they be considering with positioning and the pillow? Kind of like we were talking about with mattresses.

MC: Yeah, it’s actually kind of opposite of mattresses, because with mattresses, for instance, side sleeping, you want something on the softer end, right, to get you better pressure relief on your shoulders and your hips.

DS: Okay.

MC: But side sleeping for pillows, you want something firmer and taller, because you want to fill that space between your head and the mattress when you’re on your side to give you proper support. There’s a super weird pillow you might have seen called the Pillow Cube.

DS: Yes.

MC: I tried it and it was awesome. I am a side sleeper and like it’s a little weird with balance, you kinda have to balance your head on it a little bit.

DS: Okay.

MC: But like that’s a great one or when you think about back sleeping similar to with mattresses something closer to the medium firm not quite as tall.

DS: Okay.

MC: Sometimes a really good, like a memory foam mattress that has good contouring for the neck can help as well. And then for stomach sleeping a lot, I mean stomach sleeping as you and I both know is not always the best position for pain.

DS: I’m a stomach sleeper though, so, yep.

MC: Yeah, yeah. And some, and some people need to, right? And it’s just, you know, from, I, from a lot of my research, it’s not always the best position if you can help it, you know, sometimes some people sleep with no pillow or the flattest pillow imaginable, a very, very thin pillow to give you a little bit of comfort. But the main issue you have, I’m sure you’ve experienced as a stomach sleeper is, angling your head off of the mattress and you get that kink in your neck.

DS: Yep.

MC: Something I’m guilty of as a side sleeper is I was just on a work trip and I love how like hotel mattresses have like eight pillows sometimes waiting for you, I was at the Holiday Inn, and I’m like, oh, it’s so comfy. And I kind of like prop myself up, which is just not what I’m supposed to do.

DS: Right.

MC: So I break my own rules and I wake up with this horrible kink in my neck. So firmness, firmness is, you know, a big thing. And then obviously loft for all those positions.

DS: Actually, talking about the, the travel thing, like, do you ever know of any hotels that if you ask the front desk, do they have different pillows? I know some do, but I’m curious if you have any experience with that.

MC: Actually, I just experienced it. I do not have an affiliate relationship with Holiday Inn, it’s just all I stay at. But they they actually had all these pillows and they were different firmnesses on the same mattress.

DS: Wow.

MC: So the idea was, I believe, was you can throw the rest out and find the one that works for you. I think it’s a great way to do it. It also just looks very aesthetically pleasing. Or if you sleep with a partner, you have different preferences. Like there’s something for both of you, but I know that there’ll be like, you know, different types of blankets and things like that. So I can only imagine like, you know, welcome back, Mr. Carlsen. Would you like, you know, your, your normal pillow, you know?

DS: Like a pillow concierge sort of thing at a hotel. That would be really nice.

MC: Yeah.

DS: Yeah. Some, I think do do that. I’ve just never actually, come to think of it, asked. Because usually I can find what I’m looking for. And because I’m a stomach sleeper, honestly, I usually don’t even use a pillow.

MC: Yeah, yeah.

DS: So, firmness is a big thing we need to think about, right? So you said like height, but what about if something is really firm? Is that better for one person versus another? Like if it’s a big pillow but firm, like talk to me about that a little bit more.

MC: Yeah, because it kind of, you’re right, it does kind of get a little tricky when you talk about loft and firmness, because they can mean very, very different things.

You think about the loft or the height, again, the Pillow Cube, for example, like that is a firm pillow that’s also very, very tall. But you can have a down pillow that’s very fluffy and very lofty, but not be very firm.

DS: That’s what I use. Yeah.

MC: Yeah. And I think that it’s more about compression, you know, so if you’re if you’re a stomach sleeper-

DS: Okay.

MC: Again, thinner pillows, great, but something that’s like super, super soft and lofty could be okay, because you’re just you’re, you’re crushing it right down.

DS: Yeah.

MC: That can also work well for back sleepers as well. It’s kind of like, is there enough material in there to keep your head elevated in the right way to keep you in good neutral alignment? And again, I think for side sleepers, it’s more in my opinion, more about firmness. You know, obviously you need that loft. You also need that support to it. I think about a thicker pillow, like Eli and Elm have a side sleeper pillow that I like.

DS: Yeah.

MC: You get that loft, but it’s also firm enough to keep my head elevated when I’m on my side. It also has an interesting U shape so that the shoulder is not driving into the pillow.

DS: Yeah.

MC: And it’s made for side sleepers in that way.

DS: How many pillows do you think you’ve tried out and tested over the years?

MC: Hundreds. And we have, uh, I want to call out Tony Klespis, who’s one of our accessory gurus here at Mattress Clarity as well. And, and his numbers are beyond that. He knows the ins and outs.

And, and, and with pillows too, it’s really interesting. Just from a review perspective, mattresses are harder to review in terms of like getting them into your house. With pillows, being a smaller item, you can bring them home. You can spend more time with them. So it’s a more in depth data when you get to actually test them out at home.

DS: So you talked about shape with the Pillow Cube. I’m glad you brought that up because I put a little thing on like a question on my Instagram and someone asked me about the pillows and I told them we’re talking about this today and to keep an eye out and then someone else wrote to me it’s like you better talk about the Pillow Cube because I’m so interested in it. So can you talk about different shapes of pillows that are out there and who they might be designed for?

MC: Yeah, absolutely. So the main ones obviously are wedge pillows.

DS: Yeah.

MC: That’s one that I had tried at home. I deal with sleep apnea. I think we talked about last time and also acid reflux. It’s huge. It’s a little bit of elevation. It’s kind of the same experience you get with getting an adjustable bed. Inclining your head a little bit and the top of your body.

You also have body pillows, which, you know, are very good for pregnant women. People with pain issues, you can put it between your legs, which can help with, with different types of pain and opening up the lower back.

DS: Even a wedge pillow. I use that under my belly when I would sleep on my side. Yeah.

MC: Yeah. And, and there’s other types of pillows that are meant to like put under your legs when you’re on your back, you know, that can help with all types of different health issues that people are dealing with. And then a big one too is cervical pillows.

DS: Oh, yeah.

MC: That’s for people with, I think, specifically neck pain. They’re ergonomically shaped to the head. There’s like a divot sometimes for the head. Also, it’s supporting the cervical spine, so it keeps you in that perfect alignment.

DS: Interesting.

MC: Usually a lot of times those are memory foam as well to get that really good contouring. And then off of that too, like, I had a CPAP pillow, which was great. So they get really specialized. And what was awesome about that, there’s a divot in it where the mask is. And so for side sleepers, a really hard thing, I was dealing with it last night because I don’t have it anymore. And the air, which the exhaling air coming out is blowing into my pillow when I’m on my side.

And so when you have the CPAP pillow, you get that space as well. And as I said before, something like the Eli and Elm side super pillow. There’s one now, I apologize, I forget the name of it, but your arm goes through the pillow. It’s like a wedge. So when you’re on your side. And then it’s a body pillow that goes between your legs.

And I know it is for pregnant women, but for anyone, and I slept with it. It was awesome. Like it was really, really cool. Yeah. Cause you felt so supported.

DS: Interesting. Do you know of any pillows or have you tried any for CPAP users who sleep on their stomach?

MC: Ooh.

DS: That’s one. I think there’s one out there, but I don’t know off the top of my head which one?

MC: I think there’s got to be, I remember seeing one almost similarly to going to get a massage.

DS: Yeah.

MC: Like, almost like you have the ring, you know, if you want to sleep like face down, you know, but I mean, a lot of times when I’m on my stomach, you know-

DS: you’ll still have your head to the side.

MC: Turn to your, yeah, turn to your side. I think the one I tried was built for that as well.

DS: Okay.

MC: But it was a little bit thicker, so it’s a little bit better for side sleeping.

DS: So there are so many different shapes. It’s not just the typical rectangle.

MC: Yeah.

DS: That we need to always think about. Okay.

MC: Yeah. And size too, like king size, queen size, like-

DS: Oh, true.

MC: How big you need or want.

DS: What about materials? So I find that there’s even more than just mattresses, right? It can be even more overwhelming ’cause there’s different shape, different things that they’re made out of, materials, all that sort of stuff. So let’s talk about the different types of materials and who’s best for them if possible.

So the memory foam. What would be like the pros of having a memory foam?

MC: Yeah, I mean, I think, again, pain and pressure relief, good spinal alignment, back and side sleeping in particular.

DS: Okay.

MC: It’s probably not always going to be, again, the best for stomach sleeping. There are shredded memory foam pillows as well that allow you to sometimes adjust the height of the pillow and so you can have kind of a thinner memory foam pillow for stomach sleeping.

DS: You mean like shredded like it’s like shredded paper like that kind of but with memory foam?

MC: Yeah it’s like sometimes cubes and sometimes little smaller pieces of that so yeah it’s usually like chopped kind of chopped up in that way. A big, a big benefit of that too, as we talked about with memory foam last year with mattresses is overheating with normal type memory foam, and so shredded memory foam allows for a little bit more airflow.

It’s also a completely different feel because a block of memory foam feels significantly different than pieces of chopped up material inside.

DS: Interesting. Okay. So memory foam. Washable? Easily washed? Any cons there?

MC: I think there’s definitely a con there for washability. I think a lot of times, some that I’ve tried have covers as well beyond the pillow, even beyond the pillowcase, that allow you to wash that. Because memory foam is just not something you can throw in the washer dry, and you can’t dry clean it either, so that makes it difficult.

DS: You can’t? I didn’t realize that. Okay.

MC: Yeah.

DS: So what about the kind of old school down feather pillow? What would be a pro of that? I absolutely love my down pillow. So that’s nice and flat.

MC: Yeah, I do too. I think that there’s just that soft kind of luxurious feeling, just straight up. lightweight, more breathable than a memory foam pillow and can be durable as well. You know, the higher end you’re obviously, as you know, you’re going to spend a little bit more money for a nice specifically down pillow.

They can be, you know, on the thinner side, if you want, so good for stomach sleeping to get a little bit of that plushness, right. But not too much. And for back sleepers as well. I haven’t found a lot of down pillows that are really great for side sleeping unless they are like really, really full of, of, of material and pricey, so you’re, you’re going to spend for that.

But a drawback would be some people are hyper allergenic and they’re sensitive to the kind of particles that get trapped in a down pillow.

DS: So you’re talking about down and feather. So down is a type of feather?

MC: They’re kind of like in the same category. The feather then the down is a different type of material. It’s under, I believe, under the wing. So it’s an actual like, feathers going to be usually cheaper than down.

DS: And what about, do you know anything about washing those?

MC: Those I’m not sure about. I think that they, I, I, I have to check on that, but I don’t think that again, super, super easy to do.

DS: Yeah. So, so the rule of thumb is to get a pillow protector for any pillow, because that will help at least with that yellowing and.

MC: Yeah, and just and a good and good pillow just pillowcases as well, you know, so.

DS: Yeah. And also people like right now it’s the winter. I can’t tell you how many patients of mine and family and everything get nosebleeds and all that sort of stuff. So protect your pillow, get a pillow protector too.

MC: Yes.

DS: So for people who are allergic to down, what about the down alternative? So what would be some pros for that?

MC: Down alternative, more affordable than down. You get some of that softness as well. A lot of sleeping positions also can be good depending on the loft and the firmness, like stomach and back sleepers. Again, not ideal. I don’t think it’s going to fill in any better than a down or a feather pillow for side sleeping.

And I, they’re out there, but I just usually, if someone’s a strict side sleeper, a thicker memory film pillow a lot of times, especially as available now, is usually the way I would direct them.

DS: Down alternative, I’m guessing, is cheaper than a regular down. So if you want that feel, but you, you’re, you know, you have allergies, then maybe that’s a way to go or price or whatever.

MC: A lot of pros in that way.

DS: So latex, that is a whole area of, like, a kind of pillow that I just don’t know much about. So take us through, like, why would someone choose a latex pillow? What’s the deal with that?

MC: Yeah, I think latex is an interesting material in general, even for mattresses. They’re very, very durable, especially naturally latex, natural latex pillows.

They can be hypoallergenic as well, very supportive too. So a thick latex pillow can be great for side sleeping. Back sleeping as well. Not always for stomach sleeping. Breathability is huge, too. We talked about this I know with mattresses, but you know with memory foam they have those viscoelastic chemicals that trap body heat can make you overheat.

DS: Yeah.

MC: With a latex pillow, you don’t usually have those and so they’re more breathable or naturally breathable

DS: Okay.

MC: And so for hot sleepers, like, finding the right mattress, the right sheets, but a pillow too, because if you’re on like a brick of hot foam, it’s not going to be a good situation.

DS: Okay, so consider that if you’re, if you’re going memory foam.

Polyester. So what’s the deal with that?

MC: I think that’s just kind of the bottom, you know, like that’s, that is short term, guest room maybe, or maybe a family member you don’t like very much. That’s so mean, but you know. They’re usually on the cheaper side.

DS: Yeah.

MC: Yeah. You go to like Target and it’s just like, it’s in a bag and it’s like 8 dollars.

DS: Yeah. They’re in like the big bin and you can just pull them out of the bin.

MC: I always think of it’s like almost like how those, those giant things with balls for kids at like, at like Walmart, it’s like dabble with pillows, you know? So.

DS: And I would argue if you are said family member or friend that is traveling to the house that might have the not so nice pillows, bring your own pillow. I do that. I love my parents dearly, but they do not have the most supportive pillows for me. So I actually bring my own pillow if you’re not flying, I mean, even if you’re flying, you can take it but it’s, it’s big. But if you’re driving, Take your pillow with you. It will make a big difference.

MC: Highly, highly recommend.

DS: Yeah.

MC: It’s the same for me when I, you know, I’m also now that I review mattresses and, and like sleep accessories, I’ve become a little bit, uh, judgmental about, you know, people will be like, hey, what do you think of my guest room mattress?

And I’m like, I never like, I’m like, Oh, it’s fine. I was great. You know, but I’m just like, I’m a little bit picky now. So.

DS: You didn’t have light blocking shades. You didn’t do this. Like, all right, you were nice enough to have me sleep over. I will do what I can. There you go.

So what about like special features that go into some of the pillows? So like, I know the cooling pillows are a really big one. Like, what would you look for in a cooling pilllow?

MC: Yeah, I think cooling is a really interesting one. Kind of like with mattresses is I get a little frightened about, about marketing speak with some of that just because as you know, like, there’s a lot of like, we have this proprietary cover and this and, and yeah, it may feel cool to the touch, but like, is it really doing anything?

The one that I often recommend people look out for, like for instance, I, I believe one of the pillows I loved was, one of the Bear pillows had great cooling features. They also, there’s a couple other brands that use what’s called phase change material, which we might’ve talked about last time. And that is a really, really probably one of the best cooling materials out there for mattresses and for pillows and other types of sleep pads is it can actually draw heat away from your body. So that’s something to look out for.

DS: So is that what you’re looking for on the package phase change material?

MC: I would keep an eye out for that. And, and I, as with all, with all product shopping, specifically with sleep stuff. It’s good to look for the reviews as well. I mean, I mean, not to like toot our own horn, but to like, look at like, okay, does this actually have the stuff in it that it says it does? And is it, is it that effective?

DS: Yeah.

MC: And actually sleeping on it for a hot sleeper like myself, you know, doesn’t do anything.

DS: What about like adjustable fill pillows?

MC: To call out my friend, Tony, again, we were chatting yesterday and I said, I’d love to like pick your brain about things to like, Avoid, and I know we’re going to get into that in a little bit, but adjustable, he goes, that’s the one that feels the most sometimes disingenuous is that it’s, it’s really, it’s a lot of, not that it’s disingenuous, but there’s a lot of trial and error, you know, and so specifically with, I would say adjustable fill where you’re pulling out, you know, you’re pulling out and then rearranging that can be difficult, but the ones I’ve liked are the ones with inserts, and it’s like a certain amount of inserts you can pull out and it’s a little bit more easy to control it. Cool, I’m going to put one more of those in there to give me a little bit more loft. That’s perfect for me. But it’s a lot more trial and error, with like adjustable fill pillows. Cause you’re just like, did I take out too much? Now it’s like lumpy and just, it can be a little bit, depending on the brand, a little bit weird.

DS: So there’s different, even different types of adjustable. I thought it was literally just you’re taking out like the feathers and stuff. Okay.

MC: Yeah. A lot, a lot of times that’s usually, and it’s usually more, I’ve seen more adjustability stuff with like shredded memory foam is a big one. That’s it. You can unzip the side. It comes out. I will say it’s a mess. I still have pieces in my apartment of just when I’ve tried this out. You gotta be careful.

DS: Is there anything listeners should avoid in a new pillow? Like red flag, don’t do.

MC: I think like we were talking about. Be careful with some of the adjustable fill stuff. Just be like, all right, it’s not going to be an end all fix all. Cooling as we were talking about as well, look out with that for marketing speak, especially if you’re a super hot sleeper, like do your research and make sure it’s going to do what it says it’s going to do. And also I think a big thing with, with mattresses and with pillows as well is like it’s not going to fix everything for you. Right?

And it’s just something to keep in mind is that sometimes you need to pair the pillow with the right mattress, with the right pillowcase. It’s not just like, it’s going to act on its own. I just, something I usually like to just like warn people about with these products, is like, don’t think this is going to be the kind of cure all.

And we were even saying earlier, it’s like, you know, sometimes it’s not just about the pillow. It’s about other health issues you’re going to be having and, you know, and so that’s, that’s a huge thing. And I think also look out just for kind of like extra, extra features sometimes that are just like, what is that? What does that even do? You know? And for, for me too, I think pillows are one of those things, like if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Like there are some, it’s like sometimes, you know, even with mattresses, it’s like, sometimes you don’t need all the like high falutin’ extras, you know, with, with that product.

Sometimes just like the simple classic type of pillow will be enough for you. And so again, bringing it back to kind of the early beginning of our conversation is looking out for your sleeping position. I think it’s just like the number one thing you want to be thinking about. So if a pillow says it’s made for everyone, sometimes I’m like, I’m not sure I believe that, you know, that’s, I think anything that says, it’s the same with mattresses, like the best mattress on the market. It’s like, that’s just impossible. You have so many preferences, specifically sleeping position, pain issues, things like that. So, that’s kind of the main things I would look out for.

DS: Okay. And, what kind of health issues would be a sign that someone’s not on the right pillow. Like, they’re trying something new. Because sometimes people say, give it a few weeks before you, Give it up, like, or is it just right after, like after a night or two you, you know,

MC: I, I think it depends, you know, like for me instance, I was sleeping incorrectly at the hotel last week, right? So my head is wedged up. I felt that immediately.

DS: Yeah.

MC: So I think in my personal experience, neck pain can show up a lot faster. Very quickly you could start to, if you don’t have the right pillow, start to like, it’s like a little bit not enough loft for sight sleeping over time you might feel neck pain get worse and worse.

Or if it’s like a low quality pillow.

DS: Yeah.

MC: You know, and it’s, it’s already starting to sag under your weight and under your head and it’s like, cool. I like, it was great in the beginning, but it’s already starting to, it’s a cheaper pillow, it’s starting to kind of lose its shape.

And I think, like, similar to what we were talking earlier about hyperallergenic pillows, like, you might not even know it. There may be materials in there because your face is right on it. And you know, something I’ve learned living in Austin with horrible allergies is like, I gotta wash my pillow cases every two days because I’m bringing in so much pollen. So like, and if your pillow’s trapping that too, just a lot of things can kind of, – allergies are a big one that I kind of look out for personally.

DS: Totally makes sense. So price point, how much should people be prepared to spend on a pillow?

MC: I had a great conversation with my friend Tony yesterday, and you know, he’s like, yeah, he’s like, you got those $10, $8 pillows from Target, right? And kind of, I think, middle of the road, like, 60 bucks is kind of what we were kind of seeing as a good, like, average price for even some good memory foam options up to like really high end like sometimes latex pillows up into the hundreds, I think like up to like 120 is like a healthy, 60 to 120 is a healthy, like you’re going to get probably a better quality pillow and again like we’re talking about when you get into down. Oh my gosh, like I remember reviewing it down. I forget the name of it, but I was like, I thought they added a zero Like to their, to their, I was like, that’s like a thousand, like a thousand dollar pillows.

DS: Oh yeah.

MC: It’s crazy. You know, it’s like bespoke, you know, natural and, and, and you get the more cruelty free stuff as well, which, which is a good thing to look out for when you’re dealing with down. So, yeah.

DS: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. So you want to spend a good amount, invest what you can. I think that’s the kind of takeaway here. And people really get, they start thinking, well, if I have to get a new pillow every two or so years, that’s, that’s an investment.

MC: It is. And you think about, you know, with mattresses, like it’s the, it’s a bigger decision because you’re hoping to have this for 10 years, right? And you’re, and you don’t, obviously returning a mattress is a lot more cumbersome physically to, to returning a pillow or, or just getting a new one. But if you, if you kind of do the math and think about, I’m sleeping on this every night, you know, for three years or, and again, for a nice run up to five years possibly, you know, it’s, it’s, it definitely. divides out pretty well to, , you know, and again, I think you and I both agree on, it’s, don’t sacrifice your sleep, right? It is such an important, I, I, I was so bad before I started doing this job of just, find the cheapest thing as quickly as possible. And times are tight, right? And it’s like, I was a college student and I’m like, oh man, like I can’t even 30 for a pillow was way too much for me or for a mattress, like Amazon two fifty, right? Cool. That’s all I need. And then why am I in pain all the time?

DS: Makes total sense.

MC: Absolutely.

DS: So Martin, we always like to end with something to sleep on one last point for anyone looking to change their sleep habits. So when it comes to pillows, do you have a final thought for the audience? Maybe something to sleep on?

MC: I like that. Don’t skimp. I think it’s just the big, is the big one. And I mean that especially we’re coming up to sales seasons. It’s a great time to buy, because they will like do half off. So I think honestly they make good gifts. Like I had a friend who got his girlfriend a Tempur-Pedic pillow for her birthday and she was ecstatic. Like it is a thing. It’s like, it’s super comfy. You use it every single night. So that’s kinda what I would say to sleep on.

DS: Awesome. Well, Martin, thank you so much for coming back on the show. The next time I’m due to refresh my pillows, I’m going to keep all this in mind. And I think my kids are due for a refresh soon. So I hope our audience keeps these things in mind as well.

MC: Thank you, Dr. Shelby. It was great to see you as always.

DS: Thanks for being here, Martin. I really appreciate it.

Thanks for listening to Sleep Talking with Dr. Shelby, a Sleepopolis original podcast. Remember, if you’re tired of hitting snooze, hit subscribe or follow right now on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, spotify, or wherever you’re listening.

And for even more sleep tips, visit sleepopolis.com and my Instagram page, @sleepdocshelby.

Today’s episode was produced by Ready Freddie Media. Our Senior Director of Content is Alanna Nuńez, and I’m Dr. Shelby Harris. Until next time, sleep well.