Episode 8: What It’s Really Like to Test Mattresses For a Living
Ever wondered how we test mattresses and whether or not we REALLY sleep on them? Well, we do, and in this episode, we’ll pull back the curtain and show you exactly how. In Dr. Shelby Harris’s conversation with Marten Carlson, Lead Reviewer for Pillar4 Media, we’ll even share what mattresses our editors sleep on.
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Dr. Shelby Harris: What’s it really like to test mattresses for a living? Is it frowned upon to fall asleep on the job or encouraged? And more importantly, what tricks of the trade can help you get a better night’s sleep?
To dive into this topic, we’ve invited Marten Carlson, Lead Reviewer for Pillar4 Media, and a real life mattress tester. So cool. Marten, welcome to “Sleep Talking with Dr. Shelby.”
Marten Carlson: Thanks for having me, Dr. Shelby. Great to be here.
DS: Oh, I’m so excited to have you ’cause this is a topic that I always wonder about.
Let’s start with the big question. What is it really like to test mattresses for a living? Like, what does an average day look like for you?
MC: Well, I definitely start waking up from a good night of sleep on a nice mattress. One of the nice sides of doing this is I get to try out all the best stuff. And so I usually sleep quite well.
But waking up, we have our own testing space. So we usually unbox a mattress a few days before we test it, because obviously we’ll get into this later, but you need time for the mattress to off-gas and expand.
Once it’s fully expanded, I spend quite a bit of time going through all our testing methodologies, so we’re talking about firmness, we’re looking at cooling, I’m breaking down the construction in terms of, okay, this type of density of foam is going to do this for this mattress, and it’s kind of being in a note taking mentality. And sometimes I’ll do a few mattresses a day in terms of just general notes, and then sleeping on them overnight as well.
DS: Oh, interesting. So sleeping on them overnight. Are you sleeping at the studio or are you bringing them home? What are you doing?
MC: A little bit of both, a little bit of both. I live in a townhouse and I’m right now upstairs and I’ve moved probably 500 mattresses in my time and it’s been six years.
That’s probably the biggest downside of reviewing is moving them around. A lot of times I like to do it at our testing space because it’s a lot easier to move things around. It’s very comfortable, very quiet, and a great place to test.
DS: I would guess it’s good strength training, right? You’re getting a lot of exercise moving around all the time.
MC: Absolutely. I just hit 40, so it’s starting to take a toll, but you know, the body’s like, hey, you can’t do this like you did when you were 34, so.
DS: But we always say that heavy lifting is really great for aging and it helps you, so keep doing it.
MC: Yes. Yes, I’m not stopping anytime soon, so.
DS: Good. How many mattresses actually, because when I’ve been to the studios in Raleigh, I’ve seen like just UPS trucks coming and just delivering mattresses. How many are coming to the testing site daily? Do you think?
MC: For us, I would say usually two to three a week.
MC: At this point we’ve reviewed all the big brands and when I’m re-reviewing it’s either because it’s time for an update, whether there’s new materials in that mattress, or it’s just been a while, and we want to kind of update and just get better, more useful content based on new testing.
But I’d say two to three a week. We are constantly moving so many mattresses through our testing space. We have a great testing team as well. We have Elisa Regulski, one of our other editors here, and then Tony Klespis, who’s one of our accessories editors. So we have a whole team here working at Mattress Clarity. So.
DS: That’s awesome. So is there anything about mattress testing that people would be surprised or shocked to learn?
MC: That’s a good question. I would say it is very subjective. I think that while scientific testing is so important, and so important for us to give information that they’re not going to find on the brand website, right? Because otherwise, what am I doing? You know, like if they can find it themselves.
DS: Right, right.
MC: I think that what the subjectivity brings is context, right? So I have tested so many mattresses to get over 500. And so having tested that many, I do have a sense of context of what is firm? What is soft? What is good pressure relief? What is poor pressure relief? What is real cooling feel like? But I guess it’s that also relates to people looking for a mattress. Like it is really subjective.
What’s great about a lot of, you know, modern mattresses, bed in a box brands in particular is sleep trials. So sometimes no matter how much research you do, you may not like it if you get the bed. There is going to be a give and take. Everyone has different preferences in terms of feel, in terms of firmness. There is great information we can offer in terms of sleeping position and cooling and get you as close as possible to the right brand. But again, I think a lot of it just is very subjective.
DS: Yeah, that’s a good point is that one of the things that I’m always stressing to people, especially nowadays is to make sure you know the return policy on the mattress, like with some of them, when I started out in the field, it was just you take it, you take the plastic off, it’s yours, you’re keeping it. And now the return policy is what they go up to a year for some brands?
MC: Yep. 365 nights for a couple brands. The standard is usually 100 to 120 nights for like other brands.
MC: They usually say give it, you know, 30 days to make sure you have broken in the mattress. Cause some foam mattresses take a little bit of time to break in. They may feel firmer at first.
MC: And give yourself the time. And so actually legally they’ll say, you have to try it out for at least 30 days. We don’t want you spending one night and saying, I hate it.
MC: Sending it, you know, right back. Give it some time. Now, usually between that 30 and 100 day mark or 365 night mark, you have a better idea if this mattress is working for you.
DS: Yeah. So really caution against anything that might not have a good return policy, really, because it is so subjective, like you were saying.
Do you and the other reviewers tend to have consensus on some of the things that you’re reviewing because you’ve all kind of been testing so many mattresses?
MC: Yes and no. I think that yes, in that we all have a lot of similar opinions of like what’s good and what’s bad. Sometimes we’ll all try a bed and say, wow. You know, like, we’ll just actually be, it’ll kind of cut through all of our, you know, you’ve tested hundreds. Okay. A lot of mattresses can feel the same over time. And sometimes, okay, this is a nice, medium, firm mattress, good for the price.
Where we differ, though, is experience, often, because a big part, again, where the subjectivity comes in is body weight and size. I’ll just put it out there, this is going to be audio only, so I’m a big guy, like I’m 6’7 I am 270 pounds. I’m a big guy, so I’m much larger than other people on my team and other testers on other sites as well, so take that into account when you’re listening to what I’m saying, you know? Because it might feel firmer to me or softer to me than another reviewer. It might feel less supportive. And for people my size, thankfully, a lot of mattresses are made specifically with me in mind. You have like the Titan mattress, you have the Saatva HD or the Nolah Evolution Comfort Plus. So there are mattresses made specifically with people like me in mind.
DS: That’s great to know. So what would you say have been some of the bigger innovations, if anything, in the past maybe few years, other than just bed in a box, which I think really has changed the industry, but any other innovations you think of?
MC: It’s really interesting. I just was at a mattress market in Las Vegas and learning a lot about what’s coming up and it is an industry where there’s not a lot of room for crazy innovation because it’s kind of like, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
There is innovation, obviously, in materials, but like, you’re gonna have your support materials, your foam materials, above. And there’s gonna be different infusions that people will try and different covers and cooling covers. Just looking at it, though, a bed’s gonna look like a bed, right? You’re gonna have the kind of very similar foam materials or coils.
Now, a lot of those can have different feels, again, and densities. There is innovation there that might not be as noticeable to kind of more of a layman, which is totally fine. One, honestly, company, I think one of the big ones is probably Purple, I think like that, that gel grid was for me very, and it still is very different than what you find in other mattresses because memory foam can be slower moving or more responsive depending on its design, but a lot of times it’s going to feel like memory foam, you know?
MC: But Purple is one of those where it’s like, wow, this actually feels strange.
There are some other things too. I really appreciate a lot of brands are doing zoning in their mattresses more often. So you’re going to have areas of the mattress that are firmer than others or, or softer than others. And the idea behind that is usually recommended to get, you know, good neutral alignment when you’re sleeping, right. For your spine to be in a straight line.
MC: And so with the zoning, it can be firmer toward the center to be under your lumbar area, which a lot of people need that extra support to help with back pain or just to get better balance of comfort and support for back sleeping. And when you’re on your side, softer under your shoulders and your hips, where more of that pressure kind of accumulates. And when you’re on your stomach, more support under the hips and the center mast, so you’re not kind of bowing into the bed. So I think the zoning is really interesting.
DS: Is that something that’s written on different mattresses, like, would you look for zoning specifically?
MC: Yes, yeah. And a lot of them, like, more and more are putting it into their mattresses, more brands.
There’s also, like, super interesting stuff, like, a mattress that I saw recently that was innovative, I had never seen before, was the Saatva RX mattress. And it’s orthopedic, and definitely meant for people who deal with back pain and other joint pain issues. And what’s cool is, it has individually wrapped coils, which you can find in a lot of mattresses.
But each coil, instead of a flat layer of foam above that layer, there are discs of foam over each individual coil.
MC: And it felt different. Like I, sometimes I’m like, okay, what does that actually mean? When I lay, when I lay down, but I could feel it really conforming in a very interesting way. Again, there’s things like that.
So I don’t want to downplay innovation in those ways, but when it comes to big innovations, I don’t see a lot of stuff happening all the time.
DS: What about the techs that people are putting in mattresses like sleep tracking or, you know, like there’s ones that have like the jets that will, like Eight Sleep, that sort of stuff that are cooling or will change the temperature? Are you seeing many of those?
MC: To be honest, I have tested the Eight Sleep and it’s cold.
MC: I mean, I don’t know if you’ve – have you laid on it?
DS: I have not, but I have a few patients who have it, who have a lot of hot flashes and run warm and they like, love it.
MC: I will say it works, you know? A lot of brands when it comes to cooling, there is a mix sometimes of, to be honest, marketing speak, you know, of like, this is cooling. It’s like, that’s not cooling. You know?
I think one of the innovations I’m seeing beyond the smart bed side of things, so I think Eight Sleep is kind of leading the charge on that cooling side, is like phase change material, which you can find in mattress pads, in mattresses. Paired with some cooling sheets has been shown to draw heat away from your body. So that’s one of those materials that actually works and actually is cool.
There are also mattresses like the Nolah Evolution that has air gussets on the side, which really does help.
MC: One of the things I’ve learned in my time when they talk about breathable foams too is not that, you’re not getting air flow through that foam, it’s a brick of foam, it’s more that when you move around, does air move out of that foam? Versus the hot body heat that is trapped in like some really thick memory foam that just like turns your bed into an oven.
But again, there are things like that that can help, like phase change material. And there’s also, like extra tech stuff like the bed jet, which I’m not sure if you’ve seen, where it just shoots air. And it’s fun to use and it definitely does work in a certain way. I haven’t seen too much other tech when it comes to cooling tech tech, besides like the Eight Sleep.
DS: Do you think that now that you have tested, you said what, over 500 mattresses?
DS: I can’t even imagine. So you’ve tested so many mattresses over the years, do you think that it has enlightened you or made you change your sleep routine in some way? Like, are you sleeping differently now that you do this all the time?
MC: A hundred percent. So when I started this job six years ago and started as a tester, became a certified, you know, sleep science coach and, you know, started kind of just testing products and learning from the bottom, right? The bottom up is like starting with comforters, working my way up to pillows. And, and, you know, it’s, there’s, I guess, a hierarchy there of what we review, but working myself up to mattresses.
The first thing I learned was that I had sleep apnea. And so beyond writing about mattresses, I was writing a lot about sleep health. And so it kind of relates that I started paying more attention.
And I bartended for years. And like, when you do that, your schedule’s totally messed up. Oh, yeah. You know, I’m up till 4 a.m., getting home from work at 3, sleeping till noon or 1.
Just not a healthy sleep schedule. And getting more into a healthy sleep schedule, writing about sleep every day, paying attention to my body and what I need.
Sleep apnea again. I found out writing an article. Oh, if you feel like you’re choking at night, like that sounds like me, you know, and I, I got tested. Like you have one of the worst cases we’ve ever seen. I’m like, well, so my job literally saved my life and it’s not hyperbolic. It totally changed my life and my energy.
But also like, I think sometimes people can overthink their mattresses. And like you were saying earlier, like you unbox your mattress back in the day and it’s yours and you’re not going to take it back.
MC: And I think there’s a mix, right, of like, when people think there are so many options out there, you can get paralyzed by the choices. Like, well, what if there’s the perfect Goldilocks mattress out there for me? And it’s like, there are so many great ones that like, there’s a range of what’s going to work for you.
And I kind of learned about that. I’d been sleeping on a cheap, like, Amazon mattress that was, you know, mostly because of finances. It was like 8 inches thick, but again, being a bigger guy, I was feeling like my bed threw it, it was horrible. So, upgrading and also realizing how important it is to invest in a mattress, it’s kind of like, it’s a lot cheaper, but buying a car. Where it’s going to be the same amount of time sometimes between when you buy, or you’re like, okay, I don’t want to skimp now because I want to make sure this is going to last for me and give me the comfort that I need for a number of years.
DS: Well, actually, that’s a good point. So to transition a bit, you’re talking about like, how long are you going to have this mattress?
DS: How does someone even know when they need a new mattress? You know, like some of my patients will be like, yeah, there’s like a huge indentation. I’m like, well, maybe it’s time for a new mattress, but what are some of the signs?
MC: I mean, number one is just that. I mean, indentations. A lot of times people who sleep with a partner, it’s the canoe effect, right? Like, I’m sure you have your patients who complain, we get stuck in the middle together. Like we roll together, right?
MC: And I’ve definitely had those beds. So sagging is a huge one.
Honestly, just like your quality of sleep. Right? So if you’re waking up and you’re not dealing with a specific issue like sleep apnea or insomnia, and it’s more specific, like, man, I just don’t feel comfortable. I’m tossing and turning.
Pain issues are often, as you know, a big sign of like, you know, joint pain.
DS: Oh yeah.
MC: And for me, I mean, I’ve had to upgrade a couple of times here and there, just being a bigger person and also being a tall guy, back pain is pretty common for people of my size. And so needing that extra lumbar support and so realizing okay, I need to upgrade here or if you’re feeling sagging toward again like you said the middle.
Allergies are a huge one too because this is a pretty gross study, but your mattress traps, you know, your skin and your sweat over years and there are pounds of it by the time you get rid of a mattress, five to seven pounds.
MC: It’s really gross. Like I saw a video that I would not show to anyone of just like what’s inside and that’s, that’s normal and that’s a lot of times why we recommend also using a mattress protector because it can help cut down on that.
MC: But that can cause allergies too because your bed is just filled with just allergens and like I live in Austin, Texas. Pollen is terrible here. I come back if I don’t shower before bed, all the pollens in my hair my body is now trapped in that mattress and it’s being directed back at me.
And a good test, it’s a fun one is take a little two night vacation. If you think it might be your mattress like even if it’s in town, If you go to a hotel and sleep on a new mattress and you sleep a hundred percent better, like, very good chance that your bed is the problem.
And so it’s often like, hey, if you had that experience, it might be the mattress that’s kind of causing your poor sleep.
DS: Yeah, that’s a good point. Okay, so someone’s identified that they need a mattress. So what is the most important thing that they need to keep in mind when they’re actually going to shop for a mattress?
MC: There are a few things, again I think the first thing we were talking about just a bit ago is, it is an investment. I think that there is an inclination, and I have done this where you’re like, you get sticker shock, right, and you know, some of the more affordable, and we can talk pricing in a bit, but like the more affordable good mattresses are at least a thousand bucks, and that’s an investment, you know? And thankfully, a lot of brands do have payment plans that are very, very fair, and you can pay that over a year or two years, which really spreads it out versus that, oh man, 1, 000 is a chunk of change for sure.
So I’d say be prepared in terms of the cost and don’t skimp, you know, because if you buy a $200 mattress like I did from Amazon, it’s not going to last very long.
And also that’s 200. It’s still a lot of money down the drain.
MC: In addition, it’s all about your sleep preferences. Any brand that recommends that there’s one great mattress for everyone, that’s not true. It’s absolutely impossible.
What’s been great is like learning about these brands, and I think Helix is a good example that has many different firmnesses, right? They go from soft to firm. They have pillow top, no pillow top, different cooling features. But specifically that firmness is your sleeping position is so important when you’re were choosing a mattress. And so people say, oh, I want something super soft and comfy, right? Like I like a plush feel, but if you’re more of a back sleeper or even a stomach sleeper, like that’s going to be contradictory to what you actually need.
Even if it feels comfortable at first, you’re going to regret it. I remember when I first started testing, I was also doing mattress toppers. And I said, I’m just going to soften this bed up. And I already had a soft bed. I threw it on. I had the worst back pain for like a week. It was, I’m like, what am I doing? Like, again, that was a learning experience.
MC: So I think sleeping position is a huge one. Another big thing to think about is if you sleep with a partner. You know all about sleep divorce and, and the numbers there, people. And I have many friends and family members who, you know, do sleep in separate beds, especially when they’re, you know, over 50 and people have more sleep issues.
Rolling around, motion transfer, you know, if your partner is rolling around, are you going to feel that?
MC: If they go to the bathroom a lot in the middle of the night, are they going to disturb you? But also preferences too, like, a lot of times, you know, someone like says, okay, I sleep on my side, but my partner sleeps on their stomach.
How can I get something that’s going to work for both of us? So it is something you sometimes need to compromise on, but there are beds, again, with that zoning that work for multiple positions. So I’d say like sleeping position, firmness, price, and whether you sleep with a partner or not are some huge big things to think about when you’re buying.
DS: Or, like we’ve talked about in other episodes, getting two twin extra longs, right, and putting them together. So are there options for that size in the mattresses that you’re looking at?
DS: To put together, right? To make a king.
MC: Yeah, absolutely.
DS: So given that you’re a mattress tester, if someone were to go to a store, or even just have one sent to their house and they wanna, like, start testing it out to see if it’s gonna possibly be a good fit, like what would be a good tip or trick for someone to try out?
MC: I was gonna say, they don’t have to invest in pressure maps like we have, or temperature guns. I think that it’s trying the bed in multiple positions to start out, because if you do roll around, or you’re going to roll around in the future, sleeping in more positions, I would say test it out in as many positions, or try to, as you can.
I would also say test out the edge support, again with couples edge support is fantastic because both partners can sleep more toward the edge, and get more surface area, right?
MC: But, if the edges are somewhat unsupported, you can kind of get that roll off effect, and I’ve done it. It’s a dangerous job. I have rolled off the mattress during testing before when there’s poor edge support. So that’s something to keep an eye out for, too.
You can test out for cooling. I mean, I think that if you pair your mattress with a thinner, if you are a hot sleeper, a thinner sheet, pay attention to, like, if you’re sweating a lot.
You know, if you’re sweating a lot and just like, okay, like, this is not normal. This new mattress really is trapping my heat. Like, I wanted a memory foam feel, but this is not working for me. So that’s something to pay attention to.
I think response too. A fun, just roll around. Just rolling around and saying like, okay, if I’m going to change positions, is this difficult?
MC: Mobility can be a real issue for people, right? Especially people with mobility issues and the elderly, its like if your mattress is thick memory foam and it’s great for pressure relief, but you actually have difficulty moving around, that can be a safety issue. So just things to pay attention to.
DS: You know, I think about when I’ve bought couches for my den in the past, I think about my husband, who was a big napper on couches, no comment.
I remember like going to stores and he would look and lie down on the couch trying to pretend to see if he could even nap on the couch. Seeing if he could get his head in certain pillows, like really get in there and try it out. Don’t be so shy, right? Try all different parts. So yeah, I guess it sounds like it’s a similar thing. He would be a great mattress tester maybe.
MC: You know, a lot of things I write, it’s like do what I say, not what I do. Sometimes I practice bad habits and I love, I love napping on the couch as well. So I, I definitely feel that.
DS: So what should you avoid? Like, we’ve looked at things that you want in a mattress. Is there something that you should really avoid in a new mattress? Any red flags?
MC: I would say something super thin. It’s rare to find a bed, no matter how affordable, that’s like less than 10 inches.
MC: There are sometimes okay ones that are eight, but like anything less than 10, especially if there are coils in it, I’d say probably run.
And I’d say keep an eye out for that. I would also avoid, again, just when it comes to price, if you’re going below 800, pay attention. Read reviews. I mean, we have, that’s what these reviews are for, right? To talk about are you getting good bang for your buck or not?
MC: Again, when it comes to cooling, do the research there too to see if the mattress is as cooling as sometimes brands say they are. There can be flashy cooling technology. I can’t think of a name off the top and I don’t want to name drop, but just like those things that sound like The Chill Factor Cover, you know, like something like that.
MC: And it just doesn’t work, so that kind of relates to a general thing too, is just, like, with buy anything, look out for marketing speak, you know, right? That can come down to cars to couches to t-shirts. Whatever you’re buying. That’s where I think reviewers come in is to kind of fill that gap right is between the consumer and the brand and say okay like we’re gonna translate this for you. What this means. If this actually does anything. So yeah, just something to keep in mind
DS: What about health issues, other than the allergen stuff that we talked about, is there a health issue that can come up if someone’s not on a good mattress?
MC: I think it’s mostly skeletal issues, back pain issues. Insomnia can come about because of a poor mattress. Like, it can kind of exacerbate the issue.
DS: Oh, for sure.
MC: And there are sometimes allergy issues. I mean, people do have latex allergies. Most latex mattresses aren’t going to cause an allergic reaction the way that like the latex in a doctor’s office is going to, like latex gloves. But there are still things to look out for. So if you have serious allergies, like to kind of do your research ahead of time.
DS: Yeah. You were kind of hinting at try not to go below 800 or at least do your research. Buyer beware, a little bit, if you’re going lower than 800 for a mattress. How much should someone realistically kind of be prepared when they’re going in to spend on a mattress?
MC: I think the sweet spot I usually say is between 1300 and 2000. Now that’s for like, I’m thinking, like the average shopper. I mean, there are great mattresses above $2,000 that are you know that $2,400 range sometimes up to $3,000. Especially when you’re dealing with natural latex mattresses like it is a more expensive material. It’s natural. It’s naturally produced but you get what you pay for. It’s more durable material. So you’ll get more life out of that bed last often a lot longer than a memory foam bed.
MC: I think you could again find stuff that’s good down to $800 doing your research, but that $1300 to $2000 is kind of that sweet spot, basically, because a lot of my favorite mattresses that I think are worth the money are kind of in that range, specifically for bed in a box mattresses or online mattresses.
DS: Yeah, I think that’s actually an interesting point to think about, though, with the life of the mattress and the amount you’re about to spend. So maybe you spend more for something that’s going to last longer versus every few years having to shell out $500 for a brand new mattress. So that’s always something to consider. You might just have a little bit of sticker shock at the beginning.
MC: Yeah, exactly.
DS: And then my last question for you, because you test so many mattresses, what mattress do you sleep on?
MC: I sleep on the Helix Midnight Lux mattress. It’s a medium firm mattress. It’s zoned. It has a pillow top. It does have cooling that I find actually effective.
DS: Are you a back sleeper, side sleeper?
MC: Back and side. I try to stay away from stomach. I know you know about this, but like, it’s not the best position for back pain.
DS: I sleep on my stomach, though.
MC: Yeah, I know. I know. There are like differing- some people say just don’t ever do it. I usually stay away from it. I’m also just like, being a bigger guy, I’m often uncomfortable and I get that neck pain, you know, from like turning my head.
DS: Oh yeah.
MC: I start on my back and usually wake up on my side. That’s usually what I sleep on, is something more close to medium firm.
DS: And as someone who’s 6’7, correct? Like what, what size bed do you have to look for, for someone who might be a lot taller?
MC: You know, I don’t fit in this world, I’ve realized I’m a huge person. I just flew yesterday. I’m just like, this is not, it’s not a world designed for my size.
I have a queen at home, honestly. I’m single right now, so I don’t need the extra space.
MC: When I have slept on California Kings that are longer, it’s nice. You know? It’s -because I usually, I’m a fetal position sleeper anyway, when I’m on my side. So.
DS: Ah, okay.
MC: I think I might be upgrading to that soon. But right now at home, it’s just a queen.
DS: Okay, that’s good to know. So, Martin, do you have any parting advice for anyone out there who might be considering a new mattress?
MC: Not to repeat myself too much, but I think don’t skimp. Again, I’ve been there, and it’s looking at those prices, and again, there are ways to mitigate that and to spread the price out across a couple years.
MC: It’s so important. You know, sleep is so important to every part of your day. And you asked me earlier about what I’ve learned as a reviewer. And that was again, a general thing that I’ve learned and kind of reprioritized in my life, is my sleep health. And trying to practice good sleep hygiene and putting my phone away, but also pairing that, you know, with a good mattress. But at the same time, you don’t have to spend $2,000 to get a good mattress.
So there’s another end to that spectrum too. You know, you can find a great one around $1,300 that will give you what you need. It’s good and durable and comfortable, but also just pay attention to sleep trials. If it’s not a fit for you, don’t be afraid to send it back and get something new.
DS: Thank you so much for being here, Marten. I’ve learned a lot and I know if I’ve learned a lot, given that I’ve been practicing sleep medicine for over 20 years, I’m sure that listeners have learned a lot as well, so, thank you again for being here.
MC: Thank you for having me. It was a great time.
DS: Thanks for listening to Sleep Talking with Dr. Shelby, a Sleepopolis original podcast. Remember, if you’re not routinely getting a great night’s sleep, follow or subscribe right now in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you’re listening.
Today’s episode was produced and edited by Freddie Beckley. Our Director of Content is Alanna Nuñez. Our Head of Content, Brand, is Molly Stout and I’m Dr. Shelby Harris.
Until next time, sleep well.